Christmas
The War that Never Was
Each year, as Thanksgiving passes and we set out sights on Holiday, Christmas or Shopping season, depending on your term, we are all touched, some more than others, by the media driven “War on Christmas”.
The most common phrase I hear on television is “What’s the big deal”? However, that sentence is always uttered by those in the majority. I feel the same way, what is the big deal? We have achieved what our Founding Fathers set out to do. We have a diversity in ethnicity, religion, culture and global views that Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc. could only have imagined. Many people that I speak with on this subject, quite frankly know little of the Founding Fathers other than the term and what they remember from school. A careful, objective study of the right books, people and philosophies of these men gives a great sense of what they were trying to achieve. “Quote mining” is a frequent, irrelevant tool for the misinformed or lazy.
This is something we should be celebrating, not creating a fictitious war over, which from what I can tell, is mostly “promoted”, for lack a reason other than ratings, by primarily the Fox Television Network, . The double edge to “Freedom of Religion” is that it happens to infringe on what are perceived as the rights of the majority, that all along should have been respected, but respected as beliefs and not rights. Beliefs and rights are very different things, and in the area of religion in the United States have become intertwined and often confused with tradition.
When I see the controversies over having displays, the displays are usually Christian, that not being an attack on Christianity, simply an observation that as a population we are mostly Christian. We do not, as I sometimes hear, live by the “majority rule” concept. If we were to do that, imagine what this country would be like. The African Americans had to fight for their rights to be treated as human beings, and that fight continues today, the same goes for Homosexuals, Hispanics, Muslims, women in many respects, just for their own reproductive systems, atheists are one of the most despised minorities in the country yet, by number there are more atheists in Unites States alone than Jews world wide. The numbers and cases could go on forever. The Bill of Rights was created to protect the minority, not the majority.
Why do we have to place religious symbols, scenes and designs representing any one religion in the one or two public places, community centers, government buildings, etc. where we know that it will cause a problem? With all the Churches, and congregants who belong to those churches, many of whom would be honored to have these displays on their property, why do the taxpayers, of all beliefs and non-beliefs have to support what they may or may not believe in?
The United States has a population of Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Jews, atheists, agnostics, Wiccan’s, Mormons, Unitarians, etc. all of which are tax exempt, except atheists and agonists, and many more. I believe there are approximately 53 tax exempt Religious Institutions in the United States. Not every respects, or even acknowledges all of those ways of thinking, and that is their right, but it is also a divisive way of thinking as it infringes on peoples rights and unfortunately, works it’s way into our political system, schools and society and all too often, hurts people.
Is it tradition that drives this “hate” in the people that get so worked up because they can’t have their nativity scene at the public square? Maybe. However, maybe you should take a step back and realized how much we have evolved as a nation and we need to be more sensitive to everyone’s beliefs. If groups insist on this type of childishness, than other groups, legally, will be able to have their groups represented. This is where I hear how “other groups” are trying to “ruin” Christmas, yet the truth is, it was the original group that refused to be sensitive. Yes, everyone could have just let it be, but that’s not how it’s been done in this country. We are a people that take a stand for what we believe. It’s good if people agree with you, you’re a trouble maker if not.
Everyone should be able to enjoy this season, for whatever it means to them. A number of the people on Fox openly promote Christianity, as is their right. They are not a public organization and their beliefs do not carry over to our public arena.
No amount of their hyperbolic rhetoric, which is dissected daily on websites and shows all over the country, should change the true spirit of the diverse citizens and patriots of this country, as they do speak for the vast majority of us, and they are frequently factually and legally inaccurate in what they report on this subject. There is a difference between opinion and fact, at least in the real world.
We separate our government and church in the United States for a reason. The Americans United for Separation of Church and State are not anti-religious, as people sometimes try to claim, simply because we may be fighting something against something they believe in, or support, this time. We end up supporting religion far more than we do opposing it. Often, however, we were brought in, by someone, or a group because of a complaint against the majority group, because once again, they are the ones insisting that their beliefs be accepted, as rights, quietly.
Though there is a misconception about the “bigotry” that takes place this time of year, the truth is, the majority is seeing a number of others that have always been the victims of bigotry fight back to take their rightful place along side them.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
These are the very first words in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution for a reason. That’s how important it became. People who show the true spirit of The United States really understand these words, along with tolerance and those, in my opinion, are the true patriots, not people on television that stir up hate everyday.
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oh! I don’t have to believe, because I know
You don’t deny the existense of God, you just don’t believe in one, I have to admit that one I don’t get. God was not sitting on the side lines, I honestly believe he doesn’t get involved in our affairs, he could but he chooses not to. Remember the movie ” Bruce Almighty ” when he created the computer program to view all the prayer requests, billions came out God has to leave us to our own designs, he’s given us what we need to prosper, but when we turn our backs on him and his son , well you can see the results. Also I guarantee you God believes in you, don’t get hung up by your hatred of the Catholic Chuch, that’s religion. I’m talking about a relationship.
“The greatest minds in the world once thought the world was flat, until Copernicus showed them they were wrong, the greatest scientists once thought the atom was the smallest thing in the universe, until they split one and all this other stuff came pouring out, now are you so arrogant and small minded that you can’t admit to the slightest possibility that you could be wrong”?
I just read this again, and this is odd as this is the exact point I MADE in my previous post.
This WAS my point. This was my whole theory in fact, the process that our civilization has gone through in learning.
Now I’m confused.
Ah, but there is where you are wrong my friend.
I do not deny the existence of a god, therefore my mind is open. I simply do not believe in the existence of a god.
In all honesty, are YOU that open minded?
Arrogant and small minded? I just said that saying “I don’t know” is OK. I have no problem saying I don’t know, it is the theist that cannot say “I don’t know”. Instead, they just insert the word “God”, and go about their merry way.
Most importantly, you did not address my point why God sat idly by for over 100,000 years and watched before jumping into action 2,000 years ago.
Your up.
I should open my mind, take your own advise and open yours to the possibilites that the question is more complicated than you imagine. The greatest minds in the world once thought the world was flat, until Copernicus showed them they were wrong, the greatest scientists once thought the atom was the smallest thing in the universe, until they split one and all this other stuff came pouring out, now are you so arrogant and small minded that you can’t admit to the slightest possibility that you could be wrong? Einstien once said that he had ten percent of the knowledge in the world, I put myself at one percent, to be kind, so if you don’t mind I’ll put you at one oercent also. Now outside of that one percent of your knowledge, is it possible that God exists. Pain and suffering , that’s a tough one , I guess it’s just the other side of the coin. How can you have happiness without sorrow, joy with out heartache. Remember what the Apostle Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians ” foolish things to confound the wise”
Sorry, that is the weakest statement by theists possible and I will go no further until you do MUCH better.
To say that God was “always” there is utter bullshit.
I can say this planet as “always” been here.
Better yet, DNA and RNA have “always” been here. You can’t have you’re cake and eat it too.
This is the kind shit that drives me crazy. We’ve gone from Adam and Eve, a flat earth, the sun revolving around the earth and much more, to the essential argument of “God was always there”, or where did the very, very first “speck” come from.
“Always there” What does that mean? What about time? What is “always” Did this “God” sit idly by why millions of people died of disease, famine, were butchered for the first 100,000+ years of humanity and then just DECIDE to jump in 2,000 years ago? That is the stupidest thing I can imagine.
Open your mind to that paragraph I just wrote and think about it, seriously.
That’s quite a change over the last 2,000 years, most of which has been in the last century.
Yes, science can answer questions and have answered questions that people like you for centuries said they couldn’t.
Therefore, since there are brilliant scientist all over this world as my fingers are typing working on answers to things we can’t yet imagine, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. They don’t mind saying “I don’t know”.
But thinking some mythical, never before seen from, heard from, proved and thousands of different ones, whether YOU recognize them or not, is the most LOGICAL answer is so far beyond absurd is hard to describe.
Logically thinking, did God create man, or did man create God, there is no other choice to come to but man created God, and that is a whole different subject that could virtually write a book on, supporting it, which is not very hard.
Peace.
If God exists, than he was just always there you cannot put the supernatural in to scientific terms. Just answer me this. If Jesus claimed to be God knowing he wasn’t, than of course he’s the biggest liar who ever lived, if he thought he was God and didn’t know any better than he was a maniac, but if Jesus was who he claimed to be, God in the flesh, than nothing else counts except coming to know him. I’d think about that if I were you, you may be meeting him someday.
If God created the Universe, who created God?
As a linebacker in college ( who by the way was on two Ivy League Championship teams) I hope he can run. If you would permit me I would like to send you a book called ” The faith that persuades” I am not a Fundamentalist and I have as many problems with the Catholics as you do, but this book explains a lot and offers, not physical but philosophical, proof. Also I believe in evolution, but I have always had a problem with the Big Bang, and one question always stumps me, how could the Universe create itself? I would like your comments Darwin did science a great service with the ” Origin of species” but as Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate in physics said ” I believe that’s the way God did it” but enough on this subject. My son, the one who’s in the Navy, is home on leave so I have to be brief, but next time I would like to get deeper into vouchers, and tell me where and when that conference in Philadelphia ( My home town by the way) is and I will try to get there. Please stay well my friend your the only intelligent conversation I get , and tell your son “remember to tuck in the ball” Vince Lombardi.
I took my kid to a quarterback camp and roasted my ass for two days, but the kid did really well, learned a lot and loved it, so suffering was worth. Always takes me a couple days to recoup. I always think it was only four or five years ago that I use to ride 100 miles in this weather, pop off my bike and run 20.
Christianity, Judaism and the Islamic religions are all fundamentally the same in that they are monotheistic religions.
All religions, to me, have no credibility, never have and never will. If some sort of god shows up, I will change immediately. If proof is offered, real proof, I will change, immediately. There is, in my opinion, no good reason for me to worship some narcissistic, self absorbed, cruel “god” that claims I was born a “sinner” the moment I popped out of my Mother. Then, I have to spend the rest of my life living by some set or rules, which change all the time and if not I rot and burn in hell for all of eternity, unless I beg this mythical creature for “forgiveness”, never mind the people I’ve actually harmed, then I get to live bowing down to her/him for all eternity, which sounds as bad as the other option.
I don’t WANT there to be a god, I think the whole concept is evil and cowardly, however, I do think everyone should have their right to their faith (faith being the key word, belief in something unkown), to worship as they please, AWAY FROM THE REST OF US WHO DON’T BELIEVE HOW THEY DO!
Evolution and ID? What’s to debate?
Evolution = Fact
ID = utter bullshit.
End of debate.
Nice job that scumbag Deirtbart and Fox did on Shirley Shirrod, though there’s plenty of blame to go around, but they are, as usual the leaders of the scumbag pack.
Be well.
I hope those other guys pop back. I like their views on Fox. Ha!
John, I sincerely hope this post finds you well and rested, I don;t want to sound sappy but I worry about you my friend. Also without getting into a lot of philosophy and religious beliefs, the difference between Christianity and all the other belief systems you named is …….. The tomb of Christ is empty! Other religions worship at the tomb of their founders but not one shrine in the world claims to have one bone of the body of Jesus, because if the record of Scripture reads true he left death eternally behind that day and left an empty tomb as a witness. any way, next time let’s talk Evolution and ID my favorite topic. I agree with you on this one by the way. Get back to me soon
As far as vouchers go I told you a little of my story and why I think they are a good idea for poor kids. As a nation we spend 116 billion dollars on public Education and we can’t get kids to learn. a report stated that 38% OF HIGH SCHOOL JRS. can’t pick Europe out on a map of the world, 31% can’t put the Civil war in the right century, I was giving a talk at the Boys Club in Boston and I was talking about Jedadiah Smith, Jim Bridger and Kit Carson and none of them knew who I was talking about. They all go to Public schools in poor neighborhoods and are not being Educated. Charter schools and vouchers to private schools evn religious ones will put them in a safe drug free environment where they will get the one on one attention they need. I respect your right to be an athiest, but that has nothing to do with giving these kids a chance. Stay well my friend and get better soon.
“Even atheist”. I like that. Atheists and agnostics are the fastest growing segment of the worldwide population in the “belief/non-belief” category in the WORLD, so I would get use to us.
You are missing the point on the Separation of Church and State by a very long way. Yes, my article was about a specific thing because Fox makes such a big thing about it, but it goes way beyond that.
There were at least 10 “gods” that had virgin births, resurrections, etc., hundreds of years before “Christ”, and Christmas trees date back centuries before Christianity, but that’s all a different subject, simply that Christianity isn’t even original.
Church and State:
In it’s simplest form, our Constitution forbids ANY government, Federal, State, local, etc., for endorsing any one religion.
Now, there are some out there that think that is where our Constitution is suppose to end, but any objective study by a 6th grader of our Founding Fathers SO debunks that it’s silly.
Another very simple and easy to understand point, which does often get very “gray”.
If ANY tax payer dollars are involved, NO RELIGION is to be involved, period, end of story, no exception. The problem is, there are many, many exceptions, hence organizations like mine, because people’s rights, and often the peacefulness of their lives are intruded upon. I have VERY, VERY real life experiences of that, not just “theories”, OK? People being hurt by this.
There is a bill in NJ trying to be pushed through the Senate, bill S1872, which is called the “Scholarship Act”, but is commonly known as a back door voucher program.
We’ve talked briefly about vouchers, and I will be bold enough to claim I know more about them than you do. I spent three days in the United States Senate and Congress and a three day conference in DC being educated on, and fighting the extension of the proposed extension of the Voucher Bill in DC, which we won.
In September there is a Panel Discussion, open to the public in Philadelphia, just across the river from NJ, with the NJ State Legislative Council, the Director of the NJ ACLU, the Director of the NJ-NAACP, and the Project Director from the Education Law Center in Camden, and you guessed it, last on the Panel, little old me.
It’s ashame you don’t live closer, it would be a great opportunity for your to learn about this stuff, from various points, because we all oppose for different reasons.
I’m about shot for now, but ask questions, and I’ll answer them.
First of all I’m glad to see you back and I’m glad your OK. Now in the township I live in now ( I was born in Penn.) we have a Christmas display on the town green, we also have a Minorah ( I hope I spelled that right , see I’m not Jewish) we also have a sign that says ” Happy Kwanzaa” all religious faiths are respected, as they should be. But I agree sometime Christians have this sense that just because the founding fathers were than everybody should be. But as I have said before remember ” the free exercise thereof” all Christians know that Christmas is the ancient Roman holiday “Saturnalia” we also know that Easter is taken from the Babylonians, if I recall correctly, but we all know what it symbolizes. Evolution is a topic we will have to discuss at another time. No one is more a defender of the freedom of religion than I am, even athieists. I’m on my lunch hour so I have to go now but I’ll write again soon. Keep up the good work and stay well my friend, and I truly consider you a friend I hope you feel the same. P.S I think I love you too…… NOT! but you are a friend
Dude, I just realized YOU are Angel. Very good.
I appreciate your kind words. I consider myself lucky considering the life I’ve lead compared to many with the diseases I’ve had that have had it so much worse.
For that, I am grateful and don’t let a day go by without remembering it.
OK, I’m going to address this Church and State issue with you once and for all, and hopefully it will make sense.
First, Christians have long held the theory that their “beliefs” are “rights” simply because they have been the dominate percentage of the population.
They are not. A Muslim, Wiccan, atheist (which, by the way, should only be capitalized at the beginning of a sentence, because it is not a proper noun, like theist), Jew, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu and any other of the 2,000 religions on the planet, and 53 that have tax exempt status in the United States, ALL HAVE THE SAME STANDING, PERIOD.
The Bill of Rights was created to protect the minority, not the majority, even if it is a minority of one. Freedom of religion is one of the greatest things about our country, except when it’s misused.
The easy ones are school prayer. It gets harder when you get to more subtle issues, which in many cases the majority doesn’t care, recognize or may even be aware of because they are just that, the majority.
Case in point, though a minor one. Christmas time bullshit. Is it really important, no. However, to me, it is, and I would fight it tooth and nail in my own community and I will explain why.
When I drive through my community, pretty standard suburban USA stuff, I can’t go three blocks without seeing a Church, mostly Christian. That’s no surprise, nor do I care or object. Of all these churches, think of all the people that belong to the congregations.
So, at Christmas, which by the way is a PAGAN holiday, not Christian, why on any logical reason, should the town, which is paid by all of us, atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc., put up a CHRISTIAN display?
The answer, they shouldn’t. It’s unconstitutional, it’s wrong to all of the taxpayers who are not Christian and it’s been proven by both people with other views and feelings and the Supreme Court of the United States of America.
The whole point is that is sends a message, whether you agree or not, that the “government” is supporting one religion, which is expressly forbidden in the Constitution.
A persons belief in whatever deity they choose to believe in should be between that person and whatever god they happen to believe in and it’s not “atheists” that contest that, it’s all minority religions.
Go check out the Texas School Board which is the largest purchasers of text books in the country and has recently been taken over by fundamentalists. They have removed Thomas Jefferson and replaced him with St. Thomas Aquinas. They put “ID” in along side of evolution.
We are the only civilized country on planet earth that debates the validity of evolution and the only reason for it is religious beliefs.
I could go on and on an on. As I said, I’m the President of a Chapter of the largest Church and State organization in the country, so I am fairly well schooled.
School vouchers seem like a good idea, except they’ve been tried in Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Washington DC for 7 years each. BESIDES showing absolutely NO statistical improvements in the educations, the money comes DIRECTLY out of the public school system and 80% of it goes into parochial schools, almost all Catholic. Unconstitutional, period, plus it weakens what we should spend most of our money and time on, our schools.
That’s it for now, but I look forward to “speaking” with you and I hope that douche bag comes back.
Peace.
John, a.k.a,……..god.
You haven’t gotten back to me in a while so I’m going to keep the conversation going, I sincerely hope your alright. As far as Church and state goes why does somebody’s choice not to believe have to interfere with someone’s choice to believe. At Christmas or Easter or even Thanksgiving ( which Lincoln meant to be a religious holiday, a day of prayer and thanksgiving) what do Atheists want the rest of us to do ignore it, just allow the rampant commercialization to destroy the true meaning of the season for all of us. The bill of rights ( notice I didn’t say the Constitution) allows he free exercise of religion let us practice it. Now I don’t believe in prayer in school, I don’t believe in making Jehovah’s witness students recite the Pledge but damn it allow the rest of us our ” Free exercise there of”
Dude, I am so sorry to hear that, if there is ever anything that I can do let me know. Also your Brain works just fine, you are a very intelligent person and I enjoy these debates,get back to me as soon as you can. If anybody posts while your away I will stand in for you, my designation will be “Angel Gabriel”
Actually I have MS and Epilepsy and am, as of just a couple years ago on full disability. It’s the reason for this website, my being the President of the NJ Chapter of the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State and my activity in politics and religion/atheism.
I spent 20 years running marathons and doing long distance triathlons and now, obviously with the MS, that doesn’t happen anymore so after a couple tough years of being lost (vodka), I realized even if my body didn’t work as it used to, my brain does (many would disagree).
I was a trainer, strength and conditioning coach and did metabolic analysis for athletes and the general weight loss client.
I’m 50 years old, still very functional, most of the time, it’s a day by day thing and I have an 11 year old boy and a 9 year old girl.
There’s my bio, even if you didn’t ask for it.
I’ll answer the other questions/comments in a separate post in a while.
P.S. Massachusetts I also have property in Connecticut
First of all, how are you feeling I sincerely hope it’s nothing serious. Second Darwin had already Graduated seminary when he went aboard ” The Beagle” . Galileo could have escaped he was offered a professorship at the University in Amsterdam. Many free thinkers of their time such as Spinoza( who was Jewish ) Christian Huygens and many others found refuge and freedom in The Netherlands at that time. It was the most open tolerant society of it’s time. All faiths and philosophies were encouraged an accepted, and the Presbyterian Church was the state church. I have no more use or respect for the Catholic Church than you do, it’s the most blood soaked religion in history, but they don’t run the Government they try but they don’t, I’m still not sure where Church and state is being violated. Anyway get back to me soon, your the only intelligent conversation I get, and I hope you feel better soon.
I have to go to the doctor, but I can’t believe what you said, and can’t wait to respond, where “Church and State is being violated”.
Very good, though not surprised based on your background.
My Father was a UDT Frogman.
BTW, if you don’t ming, what state do you live in, that has a lot to do with it.
Charles Darwin was going to go into the Seminary before he changed his mind and went to the Galapagos Islands. I know he was a believer, but he also wrote The Origin of Species 150 YEARS AGO.
As I said in a previous post, it was almost unheard of back then to “NOT” believe in God. People were killed for such a thing. Just ask Galileo who spent years of his life imprisoned and stifled by the most horrific organization that has ever existed on this planet, the Catholic Church. I could on, but it would fill the hard drive of my computer.
I think the Catholic Church decided to “acknowledge”, or whatever the fuck they called it, Galileo in the 1990’s sometime.
I’ll start another post.
P.S. My sons ( all three of them) are currently serving in the Military, and I agree 19.5 is to young. I was 22 and I had worked my way through college (Yale Class of 85) on an ROTC scholarship, so I enlisted, as did they. I’m proud of them they are all college graduates and all officers as I was, and I still worry about sending them or anyone’s children into harms way.
You haven’t gotten back to me in a couple of days, so I’m going to keep the conversation going. I’m on my lunch hour so I have to be brief, Jung, Harold Urey ( Nobel Laureate in physics just in case you haven’t heard of him, no insult meant) Even Darwin were believing men and I could mention hundreds of others the greatest scientists and thinkers of every age, and as far as Pascal, goes every Philosophy professor I had ( and there were four of them, all PhDs) said it was a valid arguement. Now as far as church and state goes, I.m not sure where you think the church is interfering in your life, they try ,but I just tell them to mind their own business. I respect your right to not believe I’m just not sure where you think church and state is being violated
Thamk you, I believe that you are a stand up guy too, and I know your Intellident, tough minded and sincere in your beliefs. We just disagree, and that’s the foundation of a free society. I agree with the separation of church and state but I always will stand up for everyones right to worship as their concious dictates. BTW did your father drive a landing craft or was he a udt frogman
How many people in the 18th and 19th century do you think did NOT believe in a god?
Now, do you know how many incredible quotes, from some of the smartest human beings on this planet I could write that are either articulate, funny, smart, insightful, correct, accurate, thought provoking about the sheer stupidity of God?
You’re talking about the Bill of Rights, not the Constitution. That’s why it was created.
You spoke of things “not in the Constitution”. Again, the Bill of Rights were added nine years later.
By the way, I thought about what I wrote about military service in general, not yours, and I didn’t mean it to come across so harsh. I have no doubt, from all our conversations, you’re a stand up guy, obviously not a kid.
Also, my guess is you’re pretty tough, strong minded and smart, so don’t misinterpret what I said.
What I don’t like is that our military age, on average is 19.5 years old. Those are children, and I don’t like the reasons we sent them to the places they did to get, and are continuing to get killed.
PS….notice you didn’t have much to say about Church and State
PPS….my Father, the prick he was fought in a different time, different type of war. As they say, you know this better than I, “The Marines always land first”.
Wrong……he did. See if you can figure out what he did. Hint…..he was in the Navy.
P.S. I forgot to mention I was in the first gulf war and in Somalia in Mogadishu during the “Black hawk down ” incident. also check out daily up dates I’d like to know what you think
Where do I begin, all those rights you speak of are spelled out in the Constitution, I happen to carry a copy of my favorite document on me at all times, look at the fourth,seventh and tenth admendments. also think about these words from a great American ” I cannot concieve how someone could look into the sky at night and not believe in God. I can understand looking down upon the Earth and being an atheist, but how could a man look up in the sky at night and say there is no God” Abraham Lincoln 1863
Seriously, do you think you’re going to teach me something about Church and State?
First the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution have nothing to do with one another. They are completely unrelated, different documents created for completely different reasons. The DOI was written in 1776, the Constitution 11 years later, and maybe the most important of them all, the Bill of Rights, 9 years later.
I always get a kick out of it when people say “It’s not in the Constitution”. Do you know how many things are NOT spelled out in the Constitution, but you don’t hear people yaking about? Right to a Fair Trial, Right to a Jury of your Peers, The Right to Travel, The Right Procreate, The Right to Marriage, the Right to Judicial Review, I could go on, but I think you get the point. However, these are concepts we take for granted.
The Danbury Baptists Church wrote a letter to the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, Thomas Jefferson, stating that they were very concerned that the Congregationalists of Connecticut were forming what amounted to a State Religion.
Thomas Jefferson composed a letter to them, had it reviewed by the ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, knowing of it’s importance, and that it would become very public and in that letter the phrase, “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
That is where the both the concept and phrase came from and has been being upheld both philosophically and legislatively ever since. Our fourth President, James Madison actually applied it, twice, legislatively, that’s how far back it’s actual legal precedence goes.
Pascal…………It’s referred to as “Pascal’s Wager” and it’s one of the weakest arguments put forth for the belief in any god, and most scholars agree and won’t even use it.
Lastly, why is it that people who serve in the Armed Service seem to think that everyone owes them some sort of special gratitude? Were you drafted, or was it your CHOICE to join? Why do you think you’ve done more for freedom than I have, and why do you feel you “carried and M16 to protect MY rights”?
Now, do NOT get me wrong, I happen to have great respect for the children we spend to places we have no business being in to get killed for no good reason. These, and you, are brave and selfless people, who I support with my entire being, I just resent the whole, “I did this for you” crap.
If my Father didn’t do what he did, which I’m sure was a whole lot tougher than anything you faced, in WWII, none of us may be here, but I don’t go around telling people that.
As always, it’s fun boxing.
PS… I have a copy of the Constitution and Bill of Rights on my desk, in my bathroom and on my porch.
BTW, the words separation of church and state appear no where in either the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, they appear in the Virginia Compact ( I believe that’s what it’s called but don’t quote me on it) Thomas Jefferson wrote it and those words were put in his mouth in the Declaration. Now that being said, the right to freedom of religion includes no religion, if that’s what you choose, the leaders of this nation Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison etc. were all believing men even if they backslid sometimes. But some of the greatest thinkers of our time Freud, Einstien, Bertrand Russell, Decarte agreed with you, no one will ever tell you you have to believe, some right wing fundamentalists will try just tell them to take a hike. Just remember Pascals puzzle he said that, because the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite, we can never know whether there is a God or not, but he thought it was a good idea to believe there was. If there is a God and you believe you get want you want, enlightenment eternal life maybe that red Corvette we all wanted as
teenagers, And if there isn’t a God…. well nothing is nothing you haven’t lost anything. So I believe, you don’t and I carried an M-16 for eight years to defend your right to freedom of religion or no religion
First, this is not the Civil Discussion page, as I noticed you were the only one that ever posted there, you’re first one being, “Why has no one ever posted here”, which made me laugh.
One of the reasons I created this was because I realized that, rightfully, all forums have rules so I wanted to create one without.
Anyway, nobody believes in the Freedom of Religion more than I. I am the President of a Chapter of the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, the largest such organization in the country which was formed over 65 years ago. I am the founder as well as the President of the organization, so as I said, there are few who believe more in freedom of religion that me.
Because of that, our “Nation” doesn’t have shit to do with ANY God, and that’s the way our Founding Fathers created our Constitution contrary to the douche bags on Fox and others like them. That doesn’t mean that many of them were not Christians, some were, some were not.
They were very specific in creating a SECULAR government. That means religion and government have NOTHING to do with each other.
Religion should be a private matter………not having anything to do with our NATION, nothing.
If we are “One Nation Under God”, how does represent non-believers, agnostics, atheists, etc.? It can’t, it can only be an insult for those people that is why “Nation” and “God” should have nothing to do with one another.
We are one nation under God, whatever God you believe in, or no God if you or prefer. A persons beliefs are Constitutionally protected, If it’s Jesus, Yahweh, Zeus, Odin, The Wiccan Earth Goddess or whatever you believe in we are one nation under the God you believe in, or don’t believe in. Remember what Tousannant said, “America is great because America is good, and If America ever stops being good America will stop being great” and remember this is civil discussion no swearing, or calling names
However, we are NOT “one nation under god”, and that is a horrible, unconstitutional statement that was only added in 1952, and will ultimately be removed.
By the way, which “god” are we “one nation under”? Zeus, Odin, God of the Sun, Moon, etc.? There have been thousands of gods throughout the history of man, each one just as legitimate as the other, so who’s to say we’re “one nation under WHICH god”?
it’s a crock of shit. what about all the atheists, jews, jains, wiccan, agnostics, Buddhists, muslims, etc., that live in this country? what “nation under god” are they citizens of ?
bullshit. THAT’S what freedom of religion means, and that’s why it’s a ridiculous unconstitutional statement.
I respect your right to be an atheist, that’s also guaranteed by the constitution, but remember the last sentence of the first amendment ” or prohibiting the free exercise their of” . If you want to not believe I defend your right to do that. So did Freud, Einstein, Bertrand Russell and many others. I support placing Minorahs and other religions symbols next to Christian ones, remember ” one nation under God ” even if you don’t believe in one
As you can see in my article, it depends on your views.
I’m an atheist, and we have to fight, as many minority religions do, for our equal place among Christians.
Christians, because they are so dominant numbers wise, have long held the thought that their beliefs are “rights”, and they are not.
I agree, the supposed war on Christmas is just a ploy, I celebrate Christmas and I wish all my Jewish friends and co-workers happy Hannukah ( I sincerely hope I spelled that right ) and several of my African-American friends celebrate Kwanzaa, and I wish them well. This ploy to stir up Racial and Cultural hatred is reprehensible, it never existed when I was a kid and I wish it would stop. Freedom of religion goes both ways no just the way of the fundamentalist Christian right. To everyone out there of all faiths whatever holiday you celebrate may it be a happy healthy and joyful one for you.